So What's the Problem?
Pastor Steven Furtick writes in his blog in an entry titled "I promised you a good comeback":
The other day, a lady said something to my wife that made me sick to my stomach upon hearing about it. Literally.
She was talking about how she visited Elevation with her family over the summer.
So far, so good…In fact, she continued, they have visited “just about every church in Charlotte, looking for the church that’s perfect for us.”
Uh oh…
My wife doesn’t have much tolerance for church hopping Southerners.
Neither do I.
I agree Pastor Furtick. I find the idea of church shopping to be literally stomach turning, too. You know what? It's HERESY. Our Lord turned to Peter, give him a new name (always God's way of signaling something REALLY big) and said, "On this rock I will build my church." You will notice the complete lack of plurals in that statement.
Then the woman made one of the most absurd comments I’ve ever heard from a churchgoer, even here in the Bible belt. That’s saying a lot.
“I wanted to let you know that there’s one praise song, I can’t remember the name of it, that ya’ll do better than all of the dozens of churches we’ve been to in our church shopping quest.”
Ma’am, if you’re reading:
Who do you think you are? Simon freakin’ Cowell?
Have you reduced the worship of a holy God to a singing competition?
To see which band can cover Chris Tomlin to your exact standards?What do you think this is? Shopping mall Christianity?
Like one church is Abercrombie, one is Hollister, and the other is GAP?
Don’t even use the phrase church shopping in my presence.
Jesus bought you with His blood. You don’t get to cheapen that by shopping for the church that perfectly scratches your every itch.Jesus didn’t die on a brutal cross so we could sample different church varieties like a party platter.
“I go to Church A some weeks, cause I like the music there, but I like the preaching better at Church B, and my kids like Church C, but my friends go to Church D. So I hit ‘em all.”This is madness. It makes God sick. And it makes you a spiritual bastard.
The Church is the bride of Christ.
Quit sleeping around and pimping her out to satisfy your own personal preferences.
You know what? I agree with you. Jesus bought the church with his blood, but I don't get WHY you think shopping for a church based on "worship experience" is such a terrible thing? I know why **I** think it is a terrible thing, but it seems to me Protestants in general have taken to defining "worship" as an experience that is "meaningful" to them personally. Who are you to judge what grounds too shallow to engage in the practice are? Perhaps there are scripture references that I am unaware of that govern the practice of "church shopping"? If worship should be "meaningful" to those who participate in it, then why are some methods of finding a place of worship acceptable and others not? As a Catholic, I personally don't think worship should be "meaningful" to me at all. Worship should be what God defined it to be. With God's grace and His mercy, as I draw closer to Him it will become meaningful....in no small part because HE knows better than I the appropriate food for my soul. And because God defined it, worship, in its essentials, is the same no matter what Catholic Church I attend. Worship as GOD defined it, is sacrificial. Abel knew that. Abraham knew that. Moses knew that. And so did everyone who was right with God in the Old Testament. We see over and over again, terrible punishments meted out to those who started to make worship meaningful to themselves like Nadab, Abihu, and Saul. In the New Testament, Jesus defined what form sacrificial worship was to take in the New Covenant and nowhere in Sacred Scripture do I see evidence that we get to just make it up to suit ourselves, or our culture, our community, or any other variable that you'd like to dream up. With "Do this in memory of me," Jesus took the liturgy of the Passover meal and transformed it into the sacrificial worship of the New Covenant and then provided HIMSELF as the victim and high priest. This is the worship of heaven that we see pictured in Revelation which was included in the canon because the Church Fathers knew that is spoke to the importance of worship and not because it was fodder for a poorly written series of novels.
The church is a battleship, not a cruise ship.
Pastors and leaders are generals to equip you for battle in the trenches, not cruise directors to make your stay more enjoyable on the Lido deck.To all of you who are currently searching for a church to belong to, that’s cool.
Sometimes it takes time. And you should take your time making such an important decision.But how about adjusting your criteria for church selection to reflect the will of God more than your likes and dislikes?
How about looking for the church that Jesus founded? The one that the martyrs of the first centuries died to pass down to us? They died to protect what would become the Sacred Scripture (one of the reasons to form the canon btw Call them crazy, but they didn't want to die for documents that weren't actually scripture.). They died to protect the Eucharist and not a symbolic remembrance. They died rather than sacrifice to pagan idols and yet, their practices are condemned as pagan by many Protestants who would claim they are their brothers and sisters in Christ. They died believing in the authority of the Catholic Church to proclaim and interpret the Sacred Scripture and in the magisterium's authority to decide what was and was not Sacred Scripture. They died believing in the sacramental duties and authority of their duly ordained Bishops and Priests and Deacons and yet, those who claim kinship with them denounce these things.
How about praying: “God where can you best use me?” instead of asking “What’s in it for me and my kids?”
How about considering where you can best accomplish the mission of the Son of God:
Seeking and saving what is lost.
Building the Kingdom.Not protecting your pet doctrine,
Sage advice. How about NOT protecting your pet doctrines Pastor Furtick or are your pet doctrines worth protecting because you're in charge? How about taking a good long hard look at what the men so inspired by the Holy Spirit that they were able to discern what was and was not the word of God and formed the canon of scripture that YOU accept, believed it said? How about not re-inventing worship? (At the very least could we not call it *spit* "worship experience" *spit*?) How about believing that Jesus founded ONE church and that its member were to have a unity so visible that the world would know who sent them?
singing your favorite song, or sitting in your reserved seat.
If this entry ticked you off, it’s probably because you’re guilty and God is convicting you.
I. don't. think. so. This entry ticked me off because it is the height of hypocrisy for a Protestant minister to build a "church" based on his "pet doctrines" to select a "worship team" that sings his favorite songs and sits up front in a seat reserved for him and then, criticize those who seek a church on the same grounds. Pastor Furtick, church shopping is WRONG and it isn't less wrong if it is done those reasons you consider "appropriate." The Church IS the Bride of Christ. ONE Bride. ONE Church. (One Faith, One Baptism, One Lord, One Fold and One Shepherd) It is bought with His Blood, imagine how it grieves him to see it divided.
If you’ve been attending Elevation for a while, and are a Christian who is already going to heaven, and are treating our church like American Idol, waiting to decide whether you will vote us in for another week based on whether you like the show this Sunday, please find somewhere else to take up space.
We need your seat.
Otherwise, roll up your sleeves, invite your unchurched friends, plug in as a volunteer, give financially, pray for God’s continued favor, and let’s rock this city.
Speaking of rocking this city, I’ll be making the biggest announcement I’ve ever made at Elevation this Sunday.
It is utterly ridiculous what we’re about to attempt.
And my lips are sealed.
Until Sunday.
Let's hope you are about to announce an examination of the prayer of Jesus as he was facing execution.
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you love me. John 17:20-23
We are supposed to be ONE as the Father and the Son are ONE. I wonder if Jesus and the Father have doctrinal disagreements? I wonder if their unity is "symbolic"? If it is invisible? I am ONE not just with my brothers and sisters in Christ who happen to attend Mass in the same geographical location as I do but I am ONE with my brothers and sisters in Christ at EVERY MASS that has ever taken place in every place and every time since that Passover meal in the Upper Room.
What right do any of us have to elevate our understanding of Sacred Scripture as more important than that the prayer of Our Lord? No matter how I tried to justify it when I was a Protestant, sola scriptura really amounted to my very own personal understanding of Sacred Scripture. After all, what does the average Protestant do but find a church that most closely matches his/her own understanding of Sacred Scripture? And some add in the quality of the music and the Sunday School program as well. I made my intellect into an idol. Church was what I defined it to be using my very own sin-distorted lens and whatever verses I used to support the direction I wanted to head and I blamed it all on the Holy Spirit's leading. (Succumbing to the rather obvious temptation(s) that if I was right, my brother or sister was obviously wrong and it must be because he/she wasn't hearing clearly from the Holy Spirit because of sin in his/her life. Or perhaps because I was smarter. Or more sincere. Or.....) Sola Scriptura is a doctrine of division and of disunity because it allows us all to "be like gods" and decide for ourselves what we think about the written instructions God left us. Sacred scripture is not self-evident (show me a list of the table of contents in any of the Sacred Scriptures....the canon was made by MEN). It is not self-interpreting or there wouldn't be so many different interpretations and DON'T blame the Holy Spirit for that. ONE Holy Spirit does not lead us to the kind of division and strife that leads to 30,000 denominations. (Link opens to a PDF file.)
The idea that church unity is some sort of invisible thing that binds us all together despite our doctrinal differences is heresy and the sin of "church shopping" (among others) is birthed from it. Pastor Furtick, you will not stomp out the sin of "church shopping" with a sternly worded blog entry suggesting that there appropriate and inappropriate criteria for engaging in this practice. You will stomp it out by looking to the Church Jesus founded on Peter the Rock and reconciling to it. If you need a place to start may I suggest the Coming Home Network? And while you're at it, why not bring your congregation across the Tiber with you like Alex Jones did? We're saving a seat for all of you.
Edited to add: In the event you have followed a direct link to this post, I have posted responses to Tom N.'s comment here, ty 23's comment here, and to PURPLEGIRL.
More comments from issues raised by this post and the discussions resulting from it: What is the Catholic Church Doing to Reach the Lost?, and The Catholic Church and the Bible.
And then there is this little gem on Hacking Cough.
Click here to vote for this blog:
It is my first visit here and it isn't my intention with my blog to be controversial or to contribute to anything of a religious or political nature.
But this posting pressed several buttons.
I am Jewish but found there was a void in my life and started to attend a number of services hosted by different denominations. I ended up as an orthodox 'high church' Episcopalian - the parish I belonged to was more like the Catholic Church before Vatican II. Now there is all this heretical, worldly, PC nonsense that has invaded and engulfed the ECUSA widening the schism to a place where it is irreparable.
I am now trying to find a place for my worship and prayer life that is more orthodox, and yes, I am considering the Roman Catholic Church as well as the Anglican Catholics, and Lutheran Missouri Synod.
This has become a bigger issue than my initial conversion to Christianity!
I appreciate your analogy of a cruise ship! I also understand that so many people have no real knowledge of theology and look upon a church as a feel-good social and service club. So called worship Services have become a veritable 'candy bar for the soul'. It's a direct result of, "Have bible, will preach" denominations, flashy corporate evangelists, and scriptural sound bytes. Most are following snake oil salesmen.
Most don't even understand the concepts of the Holy Trinity or the Mass.
However, if I hadn't visited all these denominations, I would not have had the opportunity to see the scope of shallow Christianity that is practiced in this country.
If I hear one more person say that he or she is 'spiritual', I'll scream!
I shall not go into the reason I became an Episcopalian, because it was a deeply personal experience and epiphany. But the denomination has separated itself from the God, and that is what is called sin.
This is the most difficult Lent for me.
(Comment this)
And you are welcome indeed to join me at the Catholic Spitfire Grill. We are very experienced in answering all kinds of questions about the Catholic Church AND there are lots of people there who find themselves similarly discombobulated by denominational issues. We'd love to have you. (Comment this)
1. Your opening rebuttal contained your first of many rather petty inferences that when God speaks of the church, He is speaking only of the Catholic church, I guess thereby disqualifying everyone else out there as a viable vehicle throgh which He can saved lost souls. Let's just get this out early, and I know this completely throws your entire world upside down, it's probably one to just agree to disagree, but...the Catholic church's belief that it is the one true church is just rediculous. I don't know how else to say it because it's so ludicrous. Not biblical, not in line with any biblical teaching, and pretty much flies in the face of what the Bible DOES say about God's plan for the local church to redeem the world.
2. Your second rebuttal contained your first of many complete misinterpretations of his post, whether on purpose or not. Pastor Furtick at no time held Elevation Church up as the only credible worship experience, or even the best worship experience. Your attempt to impune him with your comment about his declaring the standard for worship experiences is just off. His post as a whole was doing exactly the opposite. And, as a matter of clarification, which you seem to be in dire need of, is that Pastor Furtick very clearly condoned and encouraged those who were 'looking' for the body in which they could best plug in. His feeling about the terminology of 'church shopping' was only an indication of the attitude that the visitor had towards Elevation and the other churches she had been visiting. You completely took his comments out of context to satisfy your opportunity to rail on about your idea of worship, which leads us to...
3. You don't think worship should be meaningful to you? So I guess your weekly mass, your personal time with God, even the maintenance of this blog are meaningless to you. Doubt it. You find great meaning in your walk with God, as do many other Catholic churchgoes, I assume. But, let's be honest, your doctrine has proved itself to be anything but meaningful to thousands, maybe millions of people who have left the Catholic church to find something that actually spoke to them. Statistics prove that the growth of forward-thinking protestant churches, particularly in the South, as being filled with people, particularly from the North, who have left the catholic church to find something that was MEANINGFUL to them. Something that they could NOT just sit through and walk out the door unchanged. Your own church statistics tell the story of thousands, millions, of members on church rolls, while only a fraction actually attend services. Granted, that is the case in every denomination, but I guarantee you it's not the case at churches who are looking to reach people far from God as opposed to sticking to old customs, traditions, and doctrine which has proved to be ineffective in reaching today's world.
4. Your take on worship is simply put, incorrect. While God spoke very clearly about sacrificial worship in the Old Testament, He also spoke very clearly through His Son and His disciples in the New Testament. Jesus paid that sacrifice once and for all. We don't have to come before Him beaten, guilty, and downtrodden. We are called to come to Him convicted of our sin by His Holy Spirit, and seeking His forgiveness, but at the same time praising Him for the fact that "there is now no condemnation". I know that this challenges your doctrine on repentance, pennance, the whole Rosary thing, confession, etc, but let me just make one blanket statement, again, one we will just agree to disagree: not BIBLICAL. Those practices are the product of Man, not God. Worship is as decribed in the Bible, a joyful, praise-filled time to thank God for what He has done in our lives. Doesn't it just feel better, and sound more like our God, to spend the majority of our worship experience, whatever the methodology, praising and thanking Him then to spend it getting beat over the head with church-inspired guilt and the need to count beads and recite prayers. JUST TALK TO GOD, TELL HIM YOU'RE SORRY, TELL HIM YOU'RE GRATEFUL, TELL HIM YOU LOVE HIM!!! You don't need Mary or Peter to deliver the message for you.
5. The church that Jesus founded: Jesus didn't die to protect books, doctrine, Eucharists or anything else that you hold up in place of real life change. He died so that all men could be free of the bondage of sin and experience a fullness of life that is impossible without Him. He didn't die so that one mighty 'church' could be the end all for all things holy, and be the only source from which the world should take it's direction. TAKE YOUR DIRECTION FROM HIM! Yes, the Bible is a tough read, but most of the time it's pretty clear what God intends for His people. Do we really think that God's plan was that there would be one guy, who if enough people thought he was alot like Peter, could sit in Peter's chair and cast down direction depending on the current social and political climate, or how he personally felt about an issue. GOD'S WORD DOESN'T CHANGE! So we don't need to look to some figurehead who is going to express a point of view that in most probability will contradict the guy that came before him.
6. Pet doctrine. Pastor Furtick wasn't protecting HIS pet doctrine, He was protecting THE doctrine upon which the local church was based. The idea that Jesus intended for the church to reach lost people. That's the flat out Bible-based, no arguing with it purpose of the church: to reach those who do not know him. That's what everything most forward-thinking churches revolve around. My experience with the Catholic church is that it is just that, 'pet doctrine' (because it's not biblical), that would prevent it from doing much of anything to reach lost people. How many first time guests did you have this past week? How many people who have been away from the Lord, and have reconnected, not just out of guilt, but out of a longing for a MEANINGFUL relationship with God, brought them through the doors of a church for the first time since their parents stopped forcing them to go to mass? Let's not even argue that. An impactful church is a growing church, a growing movement of people seeking God, regardless of denomination. Today's Catholic church does not fit in that category.
7. Let's take a break on this one, keep it lighthearted. I know firsthand that Pastor Furtick does not play all his favorite songs, his staff and leadership prepare songs that speak to today's churchgoer and most effectively create a WORSHIP EXPERIENCE that will impact them and stay with them throughout their day, their week, weed it's way into their relationships, you name it. He also does not sit down in front. By the way, if nothing else, shouldn't our time with God, as a collective body of beleivers and those seeking new life be classified as an experience? What a great way to put it. Wouldn't you want to leave church on Sunday, feeling like you had one of the best experiences of your life? Wouldn't you want to be searching for the words to describe what you EXPERIENCED to your friends and family. I'll bet the Sermon the Mount was an experience!
7. In your last rant, you get all over this "understanding of scripture" thing, and basically, I agree with you wholeheartedly. The idea that we should find a church that lines up with OUR understanding is totally backwards, but your assumption about the average protstant is no worse than anyone's assumption's about the average Catholic. You see, the thing is, we need to stop looking at Joe Protestant, or Cathy Catholic; they're fine, they know God, right. So let them bicker about how someone preaches or how someone sings, or whether or not father so and so has a good voice to sing during mass. The point is, and the point Pastor Furtick was making with the post as a whole, is that the church isn'there for that conversation. We're not here to debate theology, we're not here to please Joe or Cathy's intellect, we are here to reach lost people. So, what Pastor Furtick was saying was...if you are Joe or Cathy, please don't come in here with your preconceived notions of how church should be done, making sure that it fits your man-made mold of what you are comfortable with. Joe can go to the little baptist church on the corner that has 75 people coming, maybe 500 on the membership roll, and get on the list for the next pot-luch dinner. Cathy, can head back to mass, say a few verses that make her feel good, that qualify her as guilt-free until the next confession, and just like Joe, head out Monday morning completely unchanged and completely ill-equipped to affect the world aroud them for the Glory of God.
RNW, I hear your passion, I hear you conviction, and I hear how much you love the church, you're just all riled up about the wrong thing. Pastor Furtck's rant was the result of his desire to REACH lost people, not build a case for the sound doctrine of the protestant church. You seem to be much more concerned with the inner workings of the church, than actually being part of the church changing lives. Stop reading about Alex Jones, stop linking to websites that will never be seen by someone who has never known Christ and start looking for those who are far from Him, and do something to help Jesus Christ intersect their life. Heck, take them to mass, help them read the Bible, give them some sound guidance on how to seek God in a new and exciting way, just don't bog them down with doctrine, ritual, or talking points about what they should say to anyone challenging the Catholic church. We are called to live for GOD, and in some ways we do that through our church, but we are not called to live for our church instead of Him.
Many people are looking to leaders like Pastor Furtick to make a dent in their lives, in their communities, in the world they live in. This Sunday, I would challenge you to ask your priest what your church has cooked up to reach your local community. What ground-breaking, life-changing, impossible to ingore risk is your church taking to ensure that you are fullfilling the Great Commission as a church? Will he have an energetic response, will he call Rome, or will he just explain how your congregation is going to continue doing the same thing you always do, and just hope that some stanger walking by the church feels tingly and decides to step inside. Whatever side of the conversation you are on, let's all just get busy working to make God's church what it was designed to be...His plan A, B, C, and D to reach the lost.
Come to Elevation. I guarantee you'll have a meaningful experience. (Comment this)