The Sin of Partial Obedience
The feedback from my opinions about Pastor Steven Furtick's blog entry "I Promised You a Good Comeback" continues to trickle in. PURPLEGIRL in a response to this post here says:
PURPLEGIRL: Wouldn't God be happy to see His children come to Him in a biblically sound church regardless if it was Catholic? Isn't that the whole point of unity? Working together for a common goal...reaching lost people in a hurting world? Isn't it possible that other denominations are being blessed by God? Sorry for the example, but take Elevation. Southern Baptist and one of the most influential churches of this era. There were 1738 people at one of the services 13 months after opening their doors. That is not a man thing...that's a God size thing. God was the only one who could have made that happen. Over 50 people giving their lives to Christ in that year. God is all over that church. How dare we say that it isn't good enough because it isn't Catholic. We might as well kick some dirt on God's shoes while we're at it. So my question is: Isn't it possible that God has more than one way in which to bring His children to Him?
And ty23 made similar statements in his remarks as well and I am sure that they are not the only ones who think that I am a crotchety, cantankerous, curmudgeon for not throwing my hands in the air and saying "You're right! It doesn't matter that they are not obedient to the One True Church! Clearly it doesn't matter to God!" Well I may still be a crotchety, cantankerous, curmudgeon but it isn't because I am not giving Elevation Church it's due. On the night he was betrayed Jesus prayed the following:
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you love me. John 17:20-23
Jesus prayed for our unity. At a minumum, we are to be ONE as He and the Father are ONE. That's not invisible or symbolic unity folks. There's no doctrinal disagreement. It's not the kind of unity that has us each doing our own thing for worship and getting together for a little inter-denominational fellowship and a more efficient food pantry. Furthermore, there is a purpose to that unity. It was to be our witness to the world. Our unity would tell the world that Jesus was indeed sent by the Father. If we take Jesus at His Word (and I certainly do), our failure to be visibly united (after all this is to be a sign to the WORLD) means that our witness is compromised. Protestantism, at it's root, denies the need for visible unity. The rejection of obedience to the authority given to the Chair of Peter by Jesus himself and the substitution of one's personal understanding of Sacred Scripture has done nothing but progressively crumble the Body of Christ. (link opens PDF file.) No matter what other biblical principles you are being obedient to, the failure to worship as Jesus commanded in the Eucharist and the rejection of the unity that Christ himself calls us to is partial obedience and the cost of partial obedience is high indeed.
How about an example of a man mightily used by God? God established his covenant with this man and his obedience and faith is praised continuously not only in Christianity but in the Jewish faith and Islam as well. Of course I am speaking of Abraham. In all honesty I am certain that my faith and my obedience will never measure up to that of Abraham's and I think is probably true of most people. In fact, that may be why we seldom hear of those times when Abraham wasn't completely obedient. How dare we disobedient wretches criticize the father of our faith, the man through whom God chose to bless the whole earth? Well I am not going to criticize, because the writers of Sacred Scripture did that for me and all I have to do is point out what they have passed on to us. In Genesis 12, Abram is commanded to "Leave your country, your people, and your father's household...." and we are told that Abram did that but "Lot went with him" Now if God commanded me to "leave my country and my people and my father's household" I am so disobedient I wouldn't even hear so I can't say I would do any better, BUT even I know that taking your nephew is not "leaving your people and your father's household." Sacred Scripture records in general terms what the consequences for that actions were. First, it caused division and strife in Abraham's household and he lost out on material blessings in his lifetime because he had to split the pastureland with his nephew. I don't think that Abraham missed the wealth much but still it was an actual reduction in the blessing that Lord planned for him alone. Abraham had to intervene when Lot was kidnapped and then again for Lot when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. All complications in Abraham's life that he could have avoided. However, this sin of partial obedience didn't just complicate Abraham's life. Remember the story of Lot's daughters (ew!) in Genesis 19:30-36? The descendants of Lot's daughters became bitter enemies of Israel. I wonder how many Israelites lost their lives because of Abraham didn't leave his nephew behind? How many widows and orphans were made? How many tears shed?
But that wasn't the only time that Abraham substituted his own understanding for God's perfect plan. I've always wondered if there were actual deaths in the court of Pharaoh when Abraham told his little "white lie"? (Genesis 12:10-20) How many times do we justify to ourselves that if you look at it from the right perspective, it's really not a lie? Thank God our white lies are seldom as consequence-laden as Abraham's. And then there is Hagar. Abraham substituted his own culturally correct plan for providing an heir instead of waiting of God's perfect plan. (And yes, I am mentally drawing a parallel here to being told in the last few days that worship needs to be "culturally correct") The son of that union, Ishmael and his descendants, became not only enemies of ancient Israel but the echoes of that act of Abraham's have reverberated to the present day. Think of the carnage that has resulted on both side of the conflict between those who claim Isaac as the inheritor of Abraham's covenant (Jews and Christians) and those who claim Ishmael was the rightful heir (Muslims)? How many widows have been made? How many mothers lost their children? How many fathers lost their sons? How many slaves were made? How many crippled? We face the consequences of that sin today.
Yes. Abraham was mightily used by God. But the sins of his partial obedience were felt not only in his own family but by Israel and all of his descendants both physical and spiritual! Yes. I believe that God is using Pastor Furtick and Elevation Church. Just as God used Abraham. Whatever victories that are being enjoyed at Elevation Church come at the unknown price of partial obedience. The same principles that Protestants use to claim authority to interpret the Bible for themselves and join together with those who interpret the Bible in their like-minded way are the same ones used in all the other Protestant churches that are not enjoying the successes of Elevation. You can disavow churches like the Westboro Baptist Church all you want but they use the same principles, the same standard (the Bible) and the same conviction that THEY are the ones who are hearing the Holy Spirit correctly. Over 30,000 church splits (PDF link) and counting. How many broken hearts does that represent? How many disillusioned?
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I would also like to point out that there is a difference between problems caused by faulty doctrine(Church Splits)and problems caused by sinful people (pedophile priests). Sinful people are found in everywhere. After all, there are sexual predators in Protestant churches too.
And as a friend of mine (not a Catholic one by the way) who was speculating about alternate reasons for the growth of Elevation pointed out just this morning in another place on the internet "If it's got a good beat and they can dance to it, it will draw all men unto itself."
(Comment this)
I really had a fun time talking with you. Believe it or not, it was the very first time I have ever blogged before. I do wish you would come check us out at Elevation. You can even bring your friend so you both can see what God is up to. Worship does have a really good beat, but it's the preaching that rocks the house! I promise you won't leave unaffected.
God Bless!!!!! (Comment this)
Let me interact with your post if that is ok. First I am enjoying your comments and I think this is important.
You said:
"I don't mean to be difficult, but I think that we might need to agree to disagree. Otherwise we will be on this topic until Jesus comes back"
I think agreeing to disagree is important. If not we would all be at each other throats and Christian love could not flourish. But often I am seeing this phrase just used just to end dialouge. The word Dialouge I think in the scriptures some 13 times. I m guilty of the same thing to be honest. The result being that when that is multplied a million times we have a situation where American Christians don't have a clue where their Christian neighbors are coming from.
You said:
"Find a sound, bible preaching church that provides an opportunity for a relationship with Christ. Spending time trying to convince people of today that the Catholic church is the only church you should go to is wasting time this world doesn't have to spare. Spend as much time telling them about the Gospel and see what results you have"
Well let me say as a member of bible believing Church that provides an opportunity for a relationship with Christ I think the message of Unity and why Christ established his Church is part of the message. It is also a message as the past shows us "sells" to put in pure vulgar secular terms. Is it the only part of the gospel? Heavens no. But it is a part of it. St Ignatius of Antitich had precious little time to spare in the World as he was being taken to Rome to die. He said on the way to meet his Savior
""See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out[through their office] the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
Ignatius of Antioch,Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:89"
and
"For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ Of God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counsellors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as ... Anencletus and Clement to Peter?"
Ignatius,To the Trallians,7(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:69"
I am just pointing out that Ignatius thought this was a important to say.
You said:
"Right now we have you and me along with a handful of ladies cheering you on when we should all be ashamed of ourselves. Who have we told about Jesus? Who have we helped see that salvation for eternity is real and a top priority? What have we done to bring people to Christ? So far all I have heard is that we should bring them to the Catholic Church. We have left Jesus out of it........."
I understand this point. But goodness lets all admit that Christ did not want this division in his Church. If we have vast amount of Churches proclaiming different Doctrines and all claiming it is from Christ that is a problem. If fellow Christians don't spend talking about it and praying about it then how will it be resolved?
You said
"We were not called to go and make people go to the catholic church."
Or are we? Maybe so.
You said
"All I am saying is that we need to focus on getting people to draw closer to God. If it happens in a catholic church, fantastic. If it happens at elevation, wonderful. If it happens in someone's living room, perfect. The point is that it is happening. There's no debating the importance of that"
Let me say I am in partial agreement as to this in some ways. I rather much have people at Elevation Church than being atheist. But also lets be honest here. Not everyone that has joined Elevation Church were lost sheep that never had the grace of God touch them or never lived their lives as Christians. I suspect like everywhere it is a mix of New Christians, former Christians, Christians that had doctrinal problems with their former Church and so on.
Let me propose this radical idea. When I am looking at the early Church it appears there starts to be a shift. We are of course commanded to go out and spread the word. At Pentecost thousand became Christians on that day. But even in the words of scriptures I can start to see a shift at least in technique and policy. As the Christian faith grew the most horrible heresies were starting to arise. People were even revolting against establishd Church authority. We can see that the Paul himself was not pleased with this and spent considerable time dealing with this. We know by the end of the first Century that it was getting worse and that the Church started to deal with this in many ways. One was that the process of entrance into the Christian community became a more of a process. In essence they wanted people to know what was the message of Christ and what they were signing up for. I think that is as important today as ever. So I think this is much more than just getting people in the pews or them "walking down the aisle" even if that decision is sincere and moved by God' grace.. That is just the start and to be honest I am thinking all Churches need to start paying more attention to this. Even St Paul said "As unto little ones in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not meat; for you were not able as yet" (1 Corinthians 3:2).
Now where am I am going with this rambling post? I do not think the Christian Church is static. We are not or should not be like the Fundamentalist Muslims that almost freeze their faith at a particular moment in time. The result being that even the particular cultural and political practices of the time are deemed essential. The Church is a living organism. It is guided by the Holy Spirit.
We can see that to protect it against corruption that the process of entering the Christian community became very important. I think this was the spirit working. I think we are in a similar situation as the early Christians. We are no longer a society that has the Catholics, the Orhtodox, and few traditional Protestant and Evanglcal Churches. We are a society now that has a multitude of Churches sometimes teaching radical different things and in fundamental disunion. All while the most frightning things are happening as culture, politics, and technology Where has his gotten us? Aborton on demand, Euthanasia laws, and a absurd definition of human freedom. Just the other day I saw that prob good Christian men and women in the South Carolina legislature thought it would be dandy idea that prisoners could give their organs(like a kidney) and in exchange get time off their sentence. Goodness ,this is in the heartland of American Christianity.No one it seems thought to consider the Christian ethics of such a move. The new assault on the Christian faith will be on the dignity of the human person. It will be viewing human life as a commodity. Our technology is far surpassing our moral reasoning. Good Christian men and women that go to Church every Sunday and have a "relationship with Christ" have no problems with stem cell research on Embryos. What was unthinkable 20 years ago is now reality. I might add also this happened while Christianity and especially Evanglical Christianity was growing by leaps and bounds. Now I do not blame Evanglical Christianity. Goodness after Vatican II, Catholics seemed to be asleep at the switch like everyone else and some of the most horrid idea were taught by supposed theologians and "leaders:. But I do have to ask if this current state of affairs is because Doctrine takes a back seat. That it doesn't matter what Church you live your life in but that you just beleieve in Jesus and have a "relationship" with him.
Is this alone the Gospel message? How can you have a relationship if you don't know about him and his message?What about the Christian "community"?
Now that being said I highly suspect that you, the blogger who has this page, and myself are on fundamental agreement on many of this concerns. I also would say that Christianity is in the forefront of opposing these things I mentioned. But we are losing that battle and in the end that will mean the loss of souls.
So yes this discussion we are having among ourselves is important. This internal housekeeping is not a waste of time. We are called to assist Christ in his mediation. For good or for worse it seems that has God had decided to again make man a part of the process of reconciling to the World to him. In conclusion I suppose what I am getting at is that this "Individualistic Christianity" ONLY view has resulted in everyone thinking that they are some kind of Pope themselves. I am not saying you share the excesses of that view. But I got to think that Church disunity and lack of attention to what is "Church" is a huge part of the problem.
The Catholic Chuch proposes a solution that is biblical and Christian in her estimation.
The tragic seperation that occured at the Reformation was not a good thing. But I think a case can be made that this largely happened because the Church had seperated already into East and West. This Schism caused an exhausted Church in the West not to be able to deal with problems. The Catholic Church and the "reformers" did not consult the rich heritage and Spirtuality of the East. I often wonder if Luther, Calvin, and the Popes had spent some time in what we now know as the Orthodox lands if this tragic mess would have happened. Disunity is indeed the work of Satan.
(Comment this)
Thanks for responding. Again, this whole thing is very new to me. I just hope I can respond without rambling. Some of the points may be out of order, but I will try my best to make sense.
Although I appriciate your knowledge of the history of St. Innatius of someplace, I have noticed a theme throughout this blog. There are more references for what the saints say than there are scriptures from the bible. I don't mean that in a rude way, but I think that maybe we aren't going to see eye to eye because I base ALL of my decisions from the information found in the bible.
So far all of you have been able to speak rather intellegently about the history of your religion, but no time looking around you in 2007. Yes, we have abortion, murder, corruption, and sin everywhere. The rate of teenage pregnancies are sky-rocketing, babies having babies. The world is screwed up. I think we have bigger fish to fry than worrying about where someone goes to church. The reason people are doing the things they are doing is because they are far from God. That brings me back to the point that we need to reach the people, get them into church, and give them a foundation of truth. As much as we would like it to be different, the world is what it is. Many people are not going to the Catholic church anymore. That doesn't mean they are sinning any more than the next person. It means that they found a place that reaches them where they are. They are now getting the bible and learning how to apply it to the world that is in front of them right now. How many less murderers, rapists, theives would their be if they were in a church that taught them what they needed to know, whatever church that might be?
On the Elevation end. Yes, not everyone that attends are far from God. But, we "...exist so that people who are far from God will be filled with life in Christ." Whether they are walking through the doors of a church for the first time ever, or if they have fallen away, I still consider the act of coming a victory. They are in church!! Praise the Lord! Now we can share the gospel and help them apply it to life. Now we can build a foundation. Now they can go into the world and affect it positively, not negatively. You can't give them that if they won't come in. If there is not a church that can reach the hardened, media crazed, internet junkies of 2007, what will happen to those people? Should we say that they don't deserve to hear the message? Why would you tell them they are doing something else wrong by not going to a Catholic church? They have bigger problems.
Again, as a former Catholic, I went through the sacrament of first holy communion, confession, and confirmation. I can guarantee that I know more about God now than I ever did going through those rituals. None of those rituals are going to help me turn from the temptation of internet porn and adultry, or say no when someone offers me pot. Those rituals are not going to help me order my finances according to God's plan, treat my husband in a loving way or raise a God fearing daughter. Those are the things I am bombarded with everyday. Those are the things I am getting prepared to battle through the teaching at Elevation. And if I forget, I have bible references to help me remember. A saint will not do that.
I think our other misunderstanding is our view on unity. Elevation has 5 core values. One of them being Unified Community. Pastor Furtick has preached about what those values mean. Our church has no problem with unity. We are united in Christ with one common goal. Reaching people for Christ. We are also united with other like-minded churches who share the same over-arching goal. There's no other unity that matters as much or has such an impact on the world. Being united in the catholic church, or however you say it, really dims in importance next to that. I would invite you to visit our website www.elevationchurch.org to see what we believe in. The vision section where there is a video of Pastor Furtick explaining the vision on Elevation church.
Thanks again for responding. I would love to hear what you think after you visit the website.
God Bless!!! (Comment this)
I just need to ask a question of you.
You SAY that everything you need to know, you get from the Bible. Yet you yourself keep referencing your pastor, the "teaching" you get there, and the leadership of others.
How is that different than studying pastors, their sermons, and teachings from the past. I'll bet that you've read commentaries in your Bibles, which may or may not be "contemporary." Same question--how is that different than looking at the commentary made by those who KNEW the Apostles?
I'm sorry that you did not make the effort to move beyond a child's understanding of the Faith, based on your statements that you made regarding your reception of the Sacraments as a youth. Perhaps if you had put the effort into learning at your mother's knee, you would have had a more mature faith. The way I see it, you have grown, and are now deeply into the "adolescent" faith of emotion and feeling good. I'll pray as you mature that you will find the "meat" of which the Scriptures speak. (Comment this)
Although I cannot say that I appriciate the assumption that you are personally aware of my walk with the Lord, I do have a response. These discussions have been cordial and productive and even a little fun, until now. I have never told anyone that they are not faithful. I do not agree with the belief that the Catholic church is the only church, however, I will never accuse someone of being faithless especially never having met them. You should not presume to know the steps that I have taken. It's a little low-class.
The bible it says that 'He gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service so that the body of Christ will be built up.' Eph.4:11-12. I cannot claim to be an expert when it comes to the bible. I was not one of the people called to be a pastor or teacher, therefore I am not going to rely on my own ineptness and try to understand everything written there on my own. I am not arrogant enough to think I have all the answers. But I do take the teachings of my pastor who does know the bible and uses it faithfully every Sunday. He takes the bible and helps me apply it in a relevant way in TODAYS world. See, the difference is that my pastor is here today, I'm not reading something my pastor wrote 2,000 ago. I can ask him directly and not rely on what a saint said ages ago. I rely on the infallable word of God, whether I read it personally or hear it in church, not on a man (St. Whowever) that isn't even in the bible. That's the difference. Bring your bible with you to Elevation. You can read right along with the Pastor.
As far as taking lessons from my mother's knee, I can only assume you mean Mary. Another big difference. I do not hold Mary up to the same or close to same level as Jesus. Mary rocked, no doubt. But she was human and probably did human things. No person is perfect. The sacraments that I did in the catholic church would have had the same affect on me even if she was standing next to me when I did them. That's the point. The Catholic church did not draw me closer to Jesus. End of story. I am sorry if that's hard to hear. It is no reflection on my walk or my feelings about the Creator of the Universe. It's not even a rip on the Catholic church. I am sure there are plenty of people who are closer to God than they could have ever imagined. Praise the Lord for that! You can pray for my faith all you want. Prayer is always appriciated. I can tell you this,however, I am going to Heaven and it's because Jesus died on the cross for my sins. That had nothing to do with the Catholic Church. (Comment this)